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Interview with Tony (University
of Reading) Feb 1997
ÔKICKING OVER THE TRACESÕ ø Interview with Tony Garnett
Dr M K MacMumraugh-Kavanagh, University of Reading
Beginning as a television actor in the late 1950s, capitalising
upon the contemporary vogue for working-class, regionalÕ performers,
Tony Garnett became a story editor in Sydney NewmanÕs revolutionary
BBC Drama Group in 1964, and was swiftly promoted to the post
of producer working on The Wednesday Play. His work during
this period included groundbreaking dramas such as Nell DunnÕs Up
the Junction (1965), Jeremy SandfordÕs Cathy Come Home (1966),
and David MercerÕs In Two Minds (1968), each directed
by Loach. Through their work on these and similar projects,
Garnett and Loach were thus central to the development of the
frequently controversial Ôdrama-docÕ genre.
In 1968, Garnett decided against
renewing his contract with the BBC and, together with
Ken Trodd, David Mercer and James Mac Taggart, established
an independent production company, Kestrel Productions.
The venture proved short-lived but GarnettÕs freelance
career as a film and television producer had been launched.
He subsequently combined projects in British television
(including the controversial Law and Order) and Hollywood
cinema (including Handgun) and his successful independent
company, World Productions, produced BBC 2Õs cult series
This Life, the popular hits Ballykissangel and Sharman,
and several other high-profile television dramas.
The interview presented here
took place in November 1996 at GarnettÕs offices in London.
Though he protests that his interest in his past work
is minimal in comparison with his interest in current
projects, he proved extremely illuminating in his appraisal
of his contribution to The Wednesday Play collection
of single television dramas (1964 - 1970). The interview
was conducted as part of the four-year research project, ÔThe
Wednesday Plays & Post-War British DramaÕ currently
in progress at the University of Reading and funded by
the British Academy and the Higher Education Funding
Council for England. The interview begins with GarnettÕs
overall assessment of this strand of single television
plays and of the prevalent mood within the BBC at this
time. In discussing his work on The Wednesday Play, Garnett
subsequently indicates several levels of debate which
are of immense interest to all readers concerned at teaching
and research level with the evolution of post-war television
drama as a socio-cultural and ÔpoliticalÕ discourse.
Q
How do you assess the BBC as an organisation in the
1960Õs? Was its hierarchy receptive to the new ideas that
you and people like you were promoting in the field of
television drama in particular?
A
The BBC at that time was a very confident organisation.
Two things had started to happen during the 1960s: first
was the move into BBC 2 - when you re in an expansionary
frame of mind, you feel optimistic. Second, colour was
starting to be introduced and was bringing in an increased
stream of income. As a result, there was the promise of
more money to spend on everything.
In addition to that, the climate
of the times was, to use the word of the time, permissiveÕ.
There was a feeling amongst sections of the Socialist-Liberal
Establishment that one of the measures of their contribution
to society was their capacity to allow. And the Socialist-Liberal
end of the Establishment was well-represented within
the BBC. But at the same time, Mary Whitehouse had started
to make trouble and the bosses at the BBC, under the
relaxed, open-minded and liberal leadership of [Hugh
Canton] Greene, became split inside themselves. On the
one hand, the last thing they wanted was to get into
trouble. The last thing they wanted was bad headlines
and questions in the House. On the other hand, most of
them were ex-programme-makers who had their own consciences
and feelings about what they were doing in the world
to consider. And in a way they each felt justified in
their existence by their enabling capacity, the capacity
just to allow programme-makers to make programmes.
So I had to dodge around their
tendency to play safe but I was able to take advantage
of their need to feel good about themselves. What I and
my colleagues were doing at that time was, in effect,
to be a younger version of themselves, a self that they
either wished they were again, or wished they had been.
So the whole matter canÕt be reduced down to a Ôyoung
Turk versus reactionary EstablishmentÕ equation because
the true situation was a great deal more complicated
than that
Q
The arrival of the dynamic, pioneering Sydney Newman in 1983
(poached from ABC TV in 1962) must have marked a radical
shift in the atmosphere of BBC Drama Group. How would
you assess Newman, his impact on BBC Drama, and his attitude
towards you?
A
Sydney was a very sophisticated, faux-naive operator.
He had survived General Motors Theatre in Canada so this
was a man for whom British television was, politically,
playground stuff. HeÕd made a huge hit of Armchair Theatre
and had been brought in to the BBC to make its drama competitive
against commercial television. When Sydney arrived, BBC
drama was very much given to ÔBoulevardÕ plays typical
of the West End, all French windows and Ôanyone for tennis?Õ!
It was safe, innocuous stuff, and commercial television
was killing the BBC in the ratings.
Sydney was a great goader
and a great protector. He was also unafraid. Lads like
me might have made some managements frightened and therefore
punishing and censorious, but he was just too grown up
in the ways of the world for someone like me to be threatening.
That meant that he was able to allow me and indulge me
in several excesses but at the same time advise me against
committing suicide
Q
What kind of excesses do you mean?
A
Well, there was a BBC policy in those days, called Ôproducer-powerÕ,
of which I took full advantage. You were supposed to refer
upwards when you had a show that was giving you problems
or when a show was likely to cause some embarrassment to
the BBC, or whatever. The rule was that if you didnÕt refer
upwards when you ought to have done, then you were in trouble:
otherwise, you were just left alone to get on with it. ItÕs
almost unimaginable now with the centralisation of power
but then there was this devolution of real programme-making
power to the producer. This was bliss and obviously we took
full advantage of it. My attitude was that the management
were terribly busy people and I didnÕt want to bother them
with details!
Q
Since several of the dramas you produced proved so controversial
and forced the BBC into a defensive position, this must
have backfired on you a number of times.
A
I just did what I could to hide away and Sydney helped me
there. A day or so after Cathy Come Home was transmitted,
the Press went mad. Sydney told me to let Jeremy (Sandford,
author) deal with it, and Ken (Loach, director) if he
wanted to. But he advised me to keep my head down. And
he was absolutely right. He was protecting me within
the BBC and I lived to fight another day.
I was also protected by Ned
Sherrin in a way. That Was The Week That Was was
done on Saturdays. I knew that the BBC could only really
deal with one crisis a week so I used to watch TWTWTW every
Saturday praying that Ned was going to get into trouble
again. I knew that if Ned caused a problem on Saturday,
IÕd be alright on the following Wednesday! But Ned had
a wonderful way of dealing with trouble - he could charm
his way out of anything. Even so, I was always so grateful
to him
Q
Was it in the interests of Ôhiding awayÕ that you increasingly
avoided the press as the 1960s progressed?
A
Yes. I thought IÕd just keep my head down and get on with
the shows. If IÕd become involved in regular, public debates
with people like Mary Whitehouse, it could only
have helped them and not me.
Which is why, as the years went on, I decided to keep
a low public profile because if you take the temptation
of your vanity to become a public person, theyÕll get
you. But if thereÕs nothing to fire at except the show
itself, you can get underneath it and get on with the
next one. IÕve never regretted the decision I made then
because itÕs given me a lot more freedom in my work to
be that figure they canÕt quite put their finger on
Q
Was Newman, with his vision of a ÔcontemporaryÕ and socially-extended
drama, a major influence on you in your work?
A
Sydney was a big influence because he was a heavyweight and,
in those days, the head of an output group had the same
status as the controller of the channel. Sydney virtually
told the Controller what drama was going to be transmitted
on BBC1. He was the expert; he was the Ôdrama manÕ. It
doesnÕt happen like that now because the Controller buys
everything individually. Now, itÕs more like a Hollywood
studio where one man decides everything.
So I was influenced by Sydney
and we were protected by him. I had the most enormous
rows with him on a regular basis - screaming matches
with veins bulging in the forehead and so on! But it
was always a Ôgood, cleanÕ row and always over when it
was over. In the end, I was like the adolescent in a
family who wonÕt obey the rules and kicks over the traces,
but he was like the wise parent who stopped me going
too far and from finding myself in serious trouble. At
the same time, he actually encouraged me in going too
far to some extent because something lively was getting
on the screen as a result. Newman was an excellent example
of broadcasting management at its best.
Q
He seems, at the same time, to have been a rather mercurial
spirit, antagonising many members of BBC personnel and
hierachy apparently deliberately.
A
He was mischievous, yes. I remember James MacTaggart inviting
me to go and work for him, and had to have an interview
with Sydney. I first met him in his office which was
bigger than most of the flats IÕd lived in, having been
marched in by Jim McTaggart and Roger Smith. I expected
a big, formal interview but instead Sydney looked at
Jim and said, ÔHell, I donÕt know what to askÕ. Then
at me, ÔOh hell. Did you see the show last night?Õ "The
Show", as he put it, was Hamlet, shot as an Outside
Broadcast at Elsinore by Philip Saville. I had seen it
and launched into a pompous and pretentious critique.
He listened. DidnÕt interrupt, a little smile playing
on his face. I finally shut up. ÔWellÕ, he said, ÔPhilip
wanted to do it and I didnÕt know the playÕ. What did
he mean, he didnÕt know the play? This was the Head of
BBC Drama! Was this his faux-naive trick or did he mean
it? I should have asked him.
ThereÕs another wonderful
Newman story I can tell you. A very pretentious BBC director
had a script that he wanted to direct and he called Sydney
and said he was keen to do it because it reminded one
so much of Ionesco. Sydney responded: ÔIan who?Õ
Q
If Newman was central to the new mood within BBC Drama Group
at this time, Hugh Carlton Greene, whom youÕve mentioned,
was vital to the direction the BBC moved in throughout
the 1960s. What did you make of Greene from the point
of view of working within the organisation he modelled?
A
Greene was a patrician: he was the best and worst of the
BBC. He summed up much of what the BBC is. I only
met him once and it had nothing to do with programme-making.
When I went to the BBC, first as a script-editor then
as a producer, I was on a short-term contract and was
active in the ACTT union. The BBC didnÕt recognise the
ACTT preferring its own tame house union. I was on the
executive of the ACTT and had been elected as the BBC
shop steward and, with the officials of the ACTT, we
went to Broadcasting House one day to meet with Greene
to try to persuade him to recognise the union. It was
my first experience of that English mandarin behaviour.
There was silver-service tea and biscuits and we had
a delightfully good-mannered forty-five minutes during
which we talked about everything and nothing. We put
the unionÕs case; he smiled and was most gracious and
we were out on the streets before we even knew weÕd been
there!
Q
At the same time, though, Greene was surely a progressive
influence, protecting the BBC from the potentially destructive
intervention of Mary Whitehouse and her pressure-group.
Equally, he miscalculated the Whitehouse campaign badly.
Do you regard his handling of her and of the issues she
raised as flawed?
A
Yes, Green did protect the freedom of programme-makers,
particularly those working on TWTWTW and The Wednesday Play.
But a snobbish, metropolitan attitude towards Mary Whitehouse
caused him to underestimate her and he was tactically mistaken
in the way he dismissed her because it put an extra edge
to her antagonism towards the BBC. He thought that she was
merely a provincialÕ housewife whereas in fact she was formidable
Q
In some ways, you admired her then?
A
I debated with her a few times and she was interesting, bright,
and very, very courageous. You patronised her at your
peril. When I worked on Up the Junction and then Cathy
Come Home, we came into open conflict. SheÕs no pushover
in debate and anybody who thinks they can go in and debate
her off the floor is in for a rude surprise. SheÕs as
tough as nails and, when thereÕs an unexpected argument,
she can think on her feet. So although all her Christian
right-wing views are anathema to me IÕve always admired
her courage because itÕs almost impossible now to imagine
what she was up against at that time. The left-wing,
liberal, permissiveÕ consensus was total, and she, almost
on her own, stood up against it to derision and insult
and highly abusive personal criticism. That took great
courage
Q
Turning now towards your work on The Wednesday Play: you
were involved in the strand from its earliest days in
1964. What can you remember of the origins of the series,
the negotiations that produced it and how would you define
its original remit?
A
Sydney (Newman] had decided that he wanted some attention
grabbing and tough contemporary drama on the screen on
a Wednesday night and he wanted a long-running anthology
series. James MacTaggart [producer in charge of the first
full season of plays], Roger Smith [story editor] and
I were told to prepare about thirty plays for the new
series and weÕd spent 1964 preparing. We were due to
begin transmission in Autumn 1964 but Donald Baverstock
blocked it. We became very down-hearted but Sydney took
us out to the terrace of the BBC club and asked us why
we were so depressed. We told him that weÕd spent all
year developing shows which were now delayed until the
New Year and probably delayed indefinitely but Sydney
replied: ÔOh, Baverstock. DonÕt worry about Baverstock.
HeÕs dead but he doesnÕt know it yetÕ. Two months later,
Baverstock resigned.
Baverstock hadnÕt wanted the
single play because he didnÕt believe that the anthology
series could get the ratings. By and large with The Wednesday
Play, we proved him wrong. We deliberately transmitted
some that we knew wouldnÕt attract a big audience but
we would always put one in front and one behind that
we knew would hold it up. So our ratings went from as
low as 3 or 4 million, up to 13 million
Q
What sort of plays were always destined to be ratings-losers?
A
Well, if youÕre going to put on a new, very difficult
David Mercer play, youÕre not going to get a big audience.
But we felt it was our job to represent this kind of ÔdifficultÕ drama
occasionally
Q
How did your connection with Ken Loach begin?
A
I met Ken when I acted in a play called Kathleen which
was produced by James MacTaggart and directed by Ken. It
was a studio production and we had to go up to Manchester
to do it. Studio production in those days involved multi-cameras
with cables everywhere. Ken was never at home in this environment
Q
When did the idea of rejecting the studio in favour of film
drama first strike you and Loach?
A
We had started to employ Ken on The Wednesday Play.
The drama, of course, was mainly studio-bound and I was getting
more and more tired of it. I often talked to Ken about my
frustration with the limitations of the studio and these
conversations had made me decide that I wanted Ken and myself
to go out and make films on location using 16mm film. The
BBC was horrified. Michael Peacock, Controller of BBC1, rejected
the idea on the grounds that he wanted ÔAÕ plays rather than ÔBÕ movies
in The Wednesday Play slot. His attitude, which was not unreasonable
when you think about it from his point of view, was that
he didnÕt see how we could go out on location, shoot for
three weeks on a very tight budget and come back with a full-length
film that would be of the sort of standard that the BBC would
want to transmit. Also, the BBC had spent a great deal of
money building new studios and they wanted them used
Q
So how did your point of view prevail?
A
I hammered away at Sydney and at Michael Peacock. In the
end, Michael agreed to let me do one location shoot,
given that I had offered to make it for the same amount
of money as a studio-bound drama. When Sydney told me
that I had permission to begin work on it, he asked me
why I wanted to die so young!
So we had permission to go
ahead but then I had to negotiate with the BBC studios
at Ealing (Ealing Film Studios). I thought they would
welcome the move but I had a terrible battle with them.
They wanted to prevent me from going ahead because they
felt that 16mm was of too low a standard for drama and
best suited to news and documentaries whereas 35mm was
best-suited to drama. I told them that there was no way
I wanted to do drama on 35mm: IÕd seen Breathless, really
admired CoutardÕs camera work on that, and had a vision
of the sort of drama I wanted to do.
My motivation in this was
political too. We wanted to take the camera into the
real world, to observe in a way that you couldnÕt do
in the studio. The battle I had with Ealing to allow
us to use 16mm was terrible but once weÕd started, of
course, and made a few more, it became a stampede. Writers
wanted to write for film, most of the directors wanted
to get out on location and within a few years drama film
was one of the biggest things that had ever happened
to Eating. It expanded their operation hugely but it
was a terrible battle to get them to agree to it in the
first place
Q
What can you remember of those early, experimental days of
filming using 16mm? You must have been finding your way
as production was in progress.
A
Our first films were black and white and we were working
with very tight budgets. Tony lmi, a huge man, was the
cameraman. HeÕd put this camera on his shoulder and walk
around with it all day
Q
The first productions caused quite a stir an this must have
altered your status within the BBC Drama Group. What
sort of deal were you able to negotiate with the BBC
in relation to your own position in their wake?
A
After the first film we made [Up the Junction], I subsequently
signed a contract with the BBC to make just four films
a year. I never went on the staff and I always made sure
that after a stint at the BBC I would go off and do a
feature film or something else before going back to the
BBC again for another stint. I didnÕt want them to think
that they ÔownedÕ me in any way and always reminded them
that I could earn a living elsewhere. They paid me to
make four films a year and thatÕs what I gave them. I
worked without a script editor and produced four feature-length
films a year from scratch. Most people now would say
thatÕs more than a full yearÕs work and I did work very
hard
Q
In selecting the subjects for your four films, what sort
of audience were you trying to reach? Did you have a
specific audience in mind, and did you act upon information
supplied by the BBC Audience Research Reports or tend
to ignore their findings?
A
I never ignored them because IÕve always been very interested
in the audience. You go into television because you want
to reach a big audience. What we were saying at the time,
and what IÕm still saying, is that we want the biggest possible
audience but we want to get it the difficult way. ItÕs not
difficult to get a large audience if thatÕs the only thing
youÕre interested in. All you have to do is stage a public
hanging on a Saturday afternoon and put some cameras on it.
The nation watches. So thereÕs no problem in just getting
an audience. And itÕs very easy to be serious and get a small
audience. The task in television is how to be both serious
and popular at the same time.
So you have to try and deal
with a subject as seriously as you can and tell the tale
in as available a way as you can find. Often, you fail.
Most of the time we had no idea what shows would have
an impact and get a big audience or vice-versa (unless
it was something really arcane like one of David MercerÕs)
because itÕs so difficult to second-guess the public
Q
But one way to be both ÔseriousÕ and ÔpopularÕ, one way to
capture this fickle public, is to use shock tactics as in
Up the Junction. This was surely a deliberate audience-attracting
(and political) strategy?
A
No question about it! We only got Up the Junction made
and on the air in the first place because James MacTaggart
[the producer in overall charge of The Wednesday Play strand
for the forthcoming season, Autumn 1965] was away on holiday.
Nell (Dunn] had written the book and we green-lighted it
while James was away on holiday, managing to get it very
far down the road by the time he got back. He looked at the
script that had been cobbled out of NellÕs book and said: ÔWeÕre
not going to try and make this? This is terrible! ThereÕs
no story and itÕs all over the placeÕ. He was right - from
the conventional point of view. But by the time heÕd got
back from holiday, it was almost impossible for him to cancel
it.
There was an element of Ôshock
tacticÕ in the film because the Abortion Law Reform Act
was up before Parliament which was one of the reasons
we wanted to do NellÕs book. I persuaded my own GP to
provide the voice-over for when Ruby was having the abortion
on the kitchen table. Ken and I were very keen on Brecht
at the time! Just calmly and coolly, with that doctorÕs
voice, he gave the statistics of the deaths from backstreet
abortions. So, yes, there was quite definitely a political
agenda in these shock-tactic devices. The same agenda
was involved in Cathy Come Home, though when Cathy was
transmitted and caused the enormous furore that it did,
we were all taken by suprise
Q
Raymond Williams said of you in 1968 that when you used the
word ÔpoliticsÕ or ÔpoliticalÕ, you actually meant ÔsocietyÕ in
wider terms. Up the Junction and Cathy Come Rome demonstrate
what he meant because, although you cite a Ôpolitical
agendaÕ, both plays transcended ÔpoliticsÕ in any party-political
sense.
A
Oh, yes. Funnily enough, Cathy Come Home had been rejected
by the BBC a couple of years before, It was originally
submitted as a little outline under the totally uncommercial
title, The Abyss. But we just quietly went ahead and
prepared it anyway. When Jeremy [Sandford] had first
begun researching the subject there had been a Tory government
but by the time the programme was made and transmitted
there was a new Labour government who therefore took
the stick. Ken and I didnÕt mind that at all and Jeremy
wasnÕt as ÔpoliticalÕ as we were. I remember being called
along to the Ministry of Housing to meet the Minister
who asked us for our advice about the housing crisis.
He said, ÔWell, what do you think we should do?Õ
Ken and I just looked at each other and replied, ÔHow about
building some more housesÕ
Q
Cathy Come Home was recognised as addressing a social problem
rather than as being keyed into ÔpoliticalÕ debate. Up
the Junction is similarly a play of ÔsocialÕ rather than
party-political concern. Yet where Cathy generated a
consensus of agreement, sharp division marked the response
to Up the Junction. For one thing, some interpreted Up
the Junction as a ÔmoralÕ tale depicting the Ôwages of
sinÕ while others read it as a subversive advertisement
for the Ôpermissive societyÕ! Do you think that thereÕs
any way for a producer or director of television drama
to limit the margins of response and interpretation?
A
No, there is no way this can be done. My attitudes towards
issues like this have changed, though. When I was younger,
I was very narrowly political in focus and, in the arrogance
of youth, I thought that we could make a film and change
the world. Now I know we canÕt and so IÕm less prescriptive
now than I was then.
But we had a far worse case
of audience misinterpretation than with Up the Junction.
John Hopkins wrote a play called Fable [1965, dramatising
a reverse-apartheid England where whites were the persecuted
race in a society controlled by Black oppressors]. We
thought HopkinsÕ play would show all the right-wing Whites
what itÕs like to be persecuted. In the event, of course,
the play did no such thing and resulted only in us receiving
masses of calls from National Front supporters congratulating
us for the ÔwarningÕ weÕd delivered. We were mortified
because we realised that weÕd made a huge error. On paper,
going in to the project, it looked as though John Hopkins
had come up with an extremely clever idea.
That was a great lesson to
me. It taught me that you must always appreciate what
the visual experience of a television play is going to
be - not the literary experience on the page, nor what
the underlying idea intends to be, but what is physically
on the screen. In this case, what was physically
on the screen was a lot of black people kicking the hell
out of a lot of white people. We were not smart enough
to anticipate the effect that would have
Q
James MacTaggart was the producer in charge of the seasons
of Wednesday Plays in which Up the Junction and Fable
were transmitted. What was his position in relation to
your work and in relation to these controversies?
A
Jim was a crucial figure because he was a BBC Establishment-stamped,
trusted person. The hierachy could feel comfortable with
these wild lads around provided Jim was there to handle
them. At the same time, he was extremely innovative,
open-minded and, again, allowing. He was also a very
fine human being and an underestimated man
Q
Turning now to In Two Minds, the film produced by you and
directed by Leach from David MercerÕs play: again, the
film uses, in loose terms, the strategies of drama-doc
in its LaingÑinspired analysis of a ÔschizophrenicÕ girl.
In many ways, the film is a Ôcase studyÕ not of the girl,
but of modern psychiatric practice (and malpractice).
What attracted you to this subject, and what was the
motivation for the use of drama-doc strategies in this
text?
A
Two years after weÕd made In Two Minds for television,
we made Family Life, a film of the same play [1971,
directed by Ken Loach]. ItÕs the only subject IÕve ever had
two bites of the cherry at. I was interested in the topic
because of a personal experience and David Mercer had also
known the person involved in this. We were both interested
in psychoanalysis as a subject as well and knew Ronnie Laing
[RD. Laing] and that group of people. We talked to Ronnie
and, drawing from conversations with him and drawing obviously
from his books, David Mercer wrote the screenplay of In
Two Minds. I wanted Roy Battersby to direct it
at first but I couldnÕt extract him from the Science and
Features Department where he was stuck, working for Aubrey
Singer. I hired Ken Loach because Roy wasnÕt free.
David and I in particular
were very, very taken with the idea that schizophrenia
was a dustbin diagnosis. I still think this is true in
many ways, although now I wouldnÕt want to make a drama
about it in the same way. First of all, we structured
the film in such a way that it ended up being bleak.
I suppose we were all so depressed at the time and we
thought that the only way to do a serious show was to
have a bleak ending - the English attitude towards pleasure!
Secondly, I think that there was too much of an indication
that the mother was to blame for the girlÕs situation
and that wasnÕt helpful. The performances, though, were
excellent. Ken and the actors did a brilliant job
Q
Do you agree that one of the most important aspects of your
work on The Wednesday Play, in plays such as Cathy Come
Home, The Lump and In Two Minds, was your challenge to
the concept of televisual ÔobjectivityÕ?
A
Anyone who ever said they believed in BBC objectivity is
either naïve or pulling the wool over your eyes.
But it was in this area that I came into conflict with
Grace Wyndham Goldie [Head of BBC Talks and Current Affairs].
She wanted my work to be stopped because she argued that
the shows were not objective and were transgressing her
area. She became a bitter enemy.
In those days, I used to say
that the most accomplished piece of regular fiction on
the BBC was the 9 OÕClock news and I still believe that.
You donÕt have to know much about Eisenstein to understand
that if you have an image on the news of some dockers
on strike, preceding it with news about very bad balance
of payments this month, and after it a very reasonable
interview with a boss of the docks saying, ÔI do wish
theyÕd go back to work or come to arbitrationÕ, if you
just present it like that, then youÕve made a judgement
on the dockers
Q
But thatÕs the idea of ÔflowÕ, and you made full use of it
yourself in your work in television drama at this time.
A
But we declared it. I have never said that we were trying
to be objective. In fact, I said that itÕs impossible
to be objective even if you try
Q
Is this your response to the contemporary complaint that
you were consciously misleading the audience as to the
nature of the ÔrealityÕ they were viewing in the television
dramas you produced at this time. This is the complaint:
in short, that you developed the drama-doc form to deliberately
disguise ÔfictionÕ as ÔfactÕ?
A
I always said clearly that we deal in fiction, not
in ÔfactÕ. In all the films with which IÕve been involved,
we went out into the world and researched and researched
and researched. Then we came back and made it all up. We make
it up - thatÕs what we do. The film is written by
somebody, produced by somebody, directed by
somebody and it is quite clear with the audience that these
are actors, that it has been made up, that it is a fiction.
Now if the audience wants to enter into this little conceit
with us, the willing suspension of disbelief because of the
style we put on it, then thatÕs fine. But I maintain that
throughout my working life IÕve kept better faith with the
audience, despite my declared political agenda, than news
or documentary-makers have ever done
This interview is submitted
as part of the British Academy and HEFCEfunded project, ÔThe
660 Wednesday Plays & Post-War British DramaÕ currently
in progress at the University of Reading. Dr Madeleine
MacMurraugh-Kavanagh is the PostDoctoral Fellow on the
project which is now in its third year. Publications
arising from the work have appeared in Media Education
Journal, Screen, and The Historical Journal of
Film, Radio and Television, and two full-length books
based on the research will be published in 1999.
For enquiries relating
to the research project, contact Madeleine MacMurraughKavanagh
at the Department of Film & Drama, University of
Reading, Bulmershe Court, Earley, Reading, RG6 I HY.
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